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Good evening. I'm David Shornbrod. We're gathered together tonight to hear an extraordinary

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story, one of the most fascinating stories in the history of man. Whether it is true or

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false is something that you will judge after you've heard the story and a discussion of

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it by a panel of scientists and science editors. The story will be told by the two people who

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have lived it, first Mr. Barney Hill and his wife Betty Hill. Barney and Betty Hill are two of

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many Americans who claim to have seen an unidentified flying object and two or perhaps a hundred who

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claim to have been aboard a flying saucer. Their story was written up for them by John Fuller,

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author, columnist, who in this new book, The Interrupted Journey, Two Lost Hours Abort a Flying

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Saucer, tells not only their story but their therapy and the revelation to themselves by

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themselves under hypnosis of their extraordinary experience. And this will then be examined and

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discussed by a panel of experts. Let's now meet our experts. Dr. Leo Sprinkel, counselor and

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assistant professor of psychology at the University of Wyoming. Mr. Edward Edelson, science editor of

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the World Journal Tribune of New York. Professor James McDonald, an atmospheric physics professor

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at the University of Arizona. Mr. Leon Jariff, science editor of Time magazine. And Carl Sagan,

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professor at Harvard University and also at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory. Now,

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Mr. and Mrs. Hill, for your story. I believe it began on the night of the 19th of September 1961 as

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you were driving home from a vacation in Canada and something happened near Lancaster, New Hampshire.

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Which one of you was the first to see this something happen?

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Benny was the first one.

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Yes.

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Benny, could you start the story then?

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Yes. We were driving along on route three and it was a very clear night and the moon was very,

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almost full and very bright. And the stars were very, the sky was very clear. We can see the stars

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easily. But suddenly, right near the moon, I noticed a new star which was much larger and

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brighter than the other stars in the sky. And I called Benny's attention to this.

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Then suddenly, we noticed it started to move. And it went across the face of the moon. We stopped

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the car and got out to look at this because we thought it was the satellite. And while we were

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observing it, it made a turn and started to come in in our direction. And at this point,

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we changed our minds thinking that it must be a plane. We were driving along and as it came

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in close so I began to realize that it was not a satellite or a plane, but it was something that

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I had never seen before. Now this was based on its maneuverability, the way it was flying.

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It was sort of, it had a very erratic flight in the sky. And as it came in closer to us,

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it was sort of riding along on the ridge of the mountains. And then when we got in the area of

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Indian Head, it suddenly swung out over the highway in front of our car. At this time, I could see

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a row of windows around the edge and a red light on each side. And it was at this point

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that Benny stopped the car and he decided to get out, to get a good look at it and to identify it.

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So I got out of the car and took the pair of binoculars, 7x50 Crescent of binoculars, and stepped

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away. And as I raised the binoculars, looking over the roof of the car from my position on the

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ground, the object shifted across the highway, where now in making the shift, it also had a

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descent motion that brought it to what I roughly estimated as about 100 feet in the air. And then

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I began walking across the highway into the field. I walked quite a distance in the field and I saw

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what I thought were figures standing by this huge plate glass looking back at me. I couldn't believe

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it. I dashed back to the car screaming to Benny that, oh my gosh, I said something is good. I said,

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it's going to capture us is what I said. There was a series of beeps and then later there was

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another series of beeps. And Betty asked me if I now believed in flying saucers and I told her,

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don't be ridiculous, of course not. We continued then to proceed on to Fortsmouth and we arrived.

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We both felt very uncomfortable and clean. I don't think I mentioned to Betty how I felt,

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but I felt clammy as if I had fallen into something very, very filthy. What time did you

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come home? I understand there was a time factor that you were surprised that you had come home so

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late. Well actually at the time, no, I wasn't surprised that we had arrived home later than

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really what we would have expected because we didn't put any particular importance on our arrival

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time except that we knew it was around 4.30. We should have arrived home at four hours. We arrived

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home in about five and a half to six hours. What were these objects on the back of your car that

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bothered you so much? Well, when we went and I went out to look at the car to check it with the

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compass as this physicist had suggested, I found some round highly polished spots on the trunk of

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the car. When I put the compass near them, it just reacted erratically. Spun around? Yes. And then

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when I moved it away, the compass reacted long. We had been asked if others had seen this spot and

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there are. There was a sergeant living in our apartment building at the time. He and his wife

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knew we had been on vacation so they came down and I told them she had gone out and she was quite

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upset about what she had seen and was trying to get me to go out and I wouldn't. So they went out

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and took a look and they came in quite excited, insisting that I go out and look on the trunk

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of Betty's car. So when I went out, I also too saw these large shiny spots and I didn't put any

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while it wasn't important. They were just shiny spots. I didn't know how they got there but I

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didn't try to even understand how they were there. What next? During the same period of time, well

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about ten days after the sighting itself, I had a series of dreams that lasted for about five nights

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and these were somewhat upsetting and puzzling to me. At first I thought of them only as bad dreams

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but then when the scientists noticed that there was this period of time, then I began to wonder if

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my dreams might have been my way of trying to recall what had happened. What could you tell us

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now about what was in those dreams? Well, the dreams, well briefly, in my dreams we were driving along,

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we were stopped by a group of men in the highway, taking all the cars, taking aboard the UFO,

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underwent physical examination and then were released. These were the dreams that I had.

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How long after your mysterious experience in Lancaster and the mountains did you go to see Dr.

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Simon? Well, this would have been in the latter part of 1963. The sighting was in September 1961

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and so I was in two years. Yes. Yes. It revealed to you what story did you learn about your experience

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under hypnosis? Well, there were the beeping sounds and then I apparently went into some kind of days,

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some kind of condition like this and were driving along and Bonnie suddenly made a shot left hand

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turn off the highway and we ran around a curve and there was a group of men standing in the highway

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and under hypnosis my first thought was there must be an automobile accident

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and then the car monitor died and Bonnie was trying to stop the car. He wasn't able to

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and these men were coming closer and they divided and at this moment I panicked. I became very frightened.

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I tried to open the car door thinking I would get out, run and hide in the woods until they were

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gone. Just as I opened the door they stepped over where I was. And could you remember under hypnosis

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what these men looked like? Not at that moment. Then they took me out of the car and I went into

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sort of another deeper days of some sort. Kind of a trance. Yes. And then I was more or less pulled

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myself out of this or at least partially and I found myself walking in the woods with a man on

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each side of me and some in front some behind me and then in back of me was Bonnie and he was like

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sleepwalking and there were these two men holding, well I was holding him up. We walked through this

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long path in the woods until we came to the craft that was sitting on the ground. We went up the ramp

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and my dad was never mentioned in Betty's dreams but we both seemed to share the idea

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that we had been going up a ramp. It was not in Betty's dreams but it was the word that came out

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on hypnosis. Yes. So we went up ramp into this car as it curved and they took me into the first room

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and they took Bonnie into the second room and while I was in there they did what we call

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physical examination. The first thing they did was they examined my arm

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apparently they were looking at my skin and they seem to be making a lot of comments

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in themselves. My sister was quite excited about this and they brought over what I called, I've

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never seen one so I don't know but I call it a microscope with a camera attached. Then after that

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they get to hear samples on my fingernails. They checked my eyes, hair, my ears, nose and things

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like this and they looked over my hands and my feet, particularly my feet quite thoroughly.

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Then they said they were going to test my nervous system and they brought over some kind of machine

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which they touched. Were you fully dressed? No, they took off my dress and my shoes and then during

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this what they call the checking of my nervous system I had a slip on and they pulled my slip off

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and did this testing. Then the next one was the examiner had a needle and I became aware that he was

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going to... Jack you? Yes, I didn't know if it was injection or what it was and I begged them not to

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use the needle because it would hurt and he started to insert it into my navel. A long needle? It was a

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long needle. I don't know how... This long? I think I'm going to get most of it. I said four to six

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inches but I became badly frightened when I saw the needle and then when I found out I planned to

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put it into my navel I became very frightened and I begged them not to do it and the leader said

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it wouldn't hurt and they started to put it in and it did. Why was he doing it? Well he said it was

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a pregnancy test and I said well it was no pregnancy test here and well they seemed to be very surprised

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that I had any pain from this and the leader put his hand up over my eyes and the pain went away

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but they stopped the test. There was one man whom you called the leader? There was what I called the

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leader and what I called the examiner. What language did you speak to them? I spoke in English

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and I don't know what language they spoke in but I understood them in English.

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By word or sound or thought transference? I don't know. You don't know? No but I

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noticed it seemed to me I actually heard sounds. I cannot say it was English. What happened when

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the examination was finished? Well then I was standing there waiting to go back to the cow because

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all during this time they reassured us that as soon as the test were over we'd go back to the cow

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and so I was standing there waiting and they said that Bonnie's examination was taking longer

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and that I would have to wait for him and then there was all this excitement and this man came

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into the room without tugging at my teeth and I questioned them about this and this is why they

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showed their surprise that Bonnie's teeth were removable and mine were not. Well with your

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experiences while Betty was in the room being examined by these man-like beings and I'd like to

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emphasize before I go into that is that this was brought out under hypnosis because I am still a

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bit reluctant in this area. I think it is important to reemphasize that the story you've just told is

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one that you were not consciously aware of. You never had to. Which was brought out of you by your

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psychiatrist Dr. Baden Simon on the hypnosis. Yes and it seemed as if I was carried up the ramp

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my feet were banging against the ground as these small men I described came up to me and

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carried me from the car and through the woods and up this ramp and into this room where I opened my

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eyes I saw a table. Betty described the table as being adequate for her to lie on the one that's

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the room where she was in and at this time I do not know where Betty is and apparently I am more

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concerned for my own welfare to be concerned about Betty but the table that I described was small

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and obviously the difference in our heights could be the answer. Well how tall were these men?

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I estimate well I said they were about as tall as Betty but this would mean that they would be

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five one above four and a half to five feet five feet yes and I'm five feet eight so that the three

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inches difference was quite a difference and I said that the table was too small where I too was

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given an examination. I'm very conscious about my teeth I was very upset about I only got as far

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as saying something went into my mouth and I did not bother the doctor and he did not press this

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as to what was happening but I can only think now that this would have been when my teeth would have

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been extracted and pulled out pulled out yeah I should have said pulled out because they had dentures

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yes and so they weren't extracted they had been but I go in the point explain that the kind of

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examination that I had been given is the scraping of the skin and I had been turned over they were

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interested in body openings and a cup-like object was placed against my genitals and I was reluctant

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to talk about that until Mr. Fuller was able to murder from me by saying lower abdomen

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and this would have been the extended examination. What do you believe now butter?

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All right that's petty first. All right petty. I believe we were really captured I mean if we

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if we were not captured there was no face to the problem of what happened during this two hours of

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van life. Well this is what I'm forced in a sense to believe that something happened that night I

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can't say definite as to what definitely happened but apparently if the hypnosis which we were led

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to believe would be the means of opening up the amnesia if this is not the facts then what are

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the facts? Well I think we're going to discuss that with a group of very knowledgeable people

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in just a moment from now. We're back with Barney and Betty Hill and about to begin discussion of

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their extraordinary case but before we go to the panel I think we ought to look at some sketches

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that they made. You may remember they said that when they got home from their experience they both

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drew sketches of what they had seen and then later on the hypnosis they drew more sketches

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would you identify these and tell us what they are? This is one that Barney drew of the abduction

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spot itself. Oh the abduction took place. Yes this is how he remembered this. A car a roadblock and

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the and the disc. Yes right this is one that Betty drew and similar to the one I drew in the two

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red balls on the side of the indicates the red lights. That's what you saw that night. This is

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what that's all. Yes now the next picture is what I tried to describe when I was standing in the field

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and as the lights had parted away from the craft itself and the figure standing there looking back

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at me now the next sketch is what is one I sketched while on the hypnosis and I was trying to

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explain to Dr. Simon what the persons that I was involved with looked like and this is what I

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drew in deep trance. I was trying to emphasize the eyes and this is what was so outstanding

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that the eyes seemed to go around the side of the face this way and the cap was my attempt at

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drawing a military cap. They had a military cap and some sort of a scarf scribble around the neck.

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Yes the figure doesn't seem to have a mouth. No it doesn't. This is a map that Betty drew

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and you can't have briefly talk about that Betty. On board the craft I asked them where they came

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from and the leader went over and showed me this map. He didn't explain where he was

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where he was on the map but he did explain that the lines he got in trade routes and

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places where they weren't regular and then expeditions. Now this is another map that we

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have here that shows the constellation of Pegasus. Yes this was printed in the New York Times. One

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year after Betty had drawn her map in which the Russians were reporting that they thought there

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were radio signals emanating from this section in the sky. She then compared the sketch she had

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drawn with the map that was published in the New York Times and she thought that there was a great

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similarity between the two. Now what is this coming about? That seems to be another attempt to sketch

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these humanoid creatures. That's correct. This was after I had undergone the session of regressive

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hypnosis and now trying to draw for the doctor's benefit what I thought the creatures looked like

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and again there's the heavy emphasis on the eyes the two slits representing nostrils and my attempt

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to show the slit line for the mouth and when the mouth was potted that is what I'm trying to show

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in this sketch. That was what I thought was a membrane inside that seemed to flutter rather than

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the same lip muscles that we have. The two nostrils without a nose. Yes that's correct. All right I

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think that the panel has been very patient I'm sure very interested in everything that's been said

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and perhaps we might ask who would like to start the questioning Dr. Sagan of Harvard University and

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I think also of the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory at Harvard. All right back to Sagan.

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Well I'd like to begin the questioning if I may with with one general line of inquiry.

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Our present understanding of the evolution of life on earth is that it's a slow process of

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evolution by natural selection that human beings are the product of several billions of years of

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random mutation accidental effects leading up to what we are now if events were even slightly

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different in the previous history of the earth we think that we would not wind up with things that

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are closely human beings but with something else. Now other planets certainly have environments quite

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different from those on the earth and therefore we would expect that beings that evolved there

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would have even greater differences and would not look closely like human beings and that's why I

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was interested to see that the characterization of the inhabitants of the supposed extraterrestrial

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space here who were with a few minor differences very closely human head to eyes something like a

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nose mouth hands feet and so on this seemed to me to have an intrinsic implausibility about it

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seemed to me that much more likely that this was putting projecting human experience onto

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perhaps something else the one question I'd like to ask is fingers how many fingers did you notice

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any about the Sagan didn't notice anything how about ear lobes I didn't notice ears how about

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Mrs. May I just briefly inject something here we were on another discussion and after very quietly

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more or less very relaxed discussing for about two and a half hours the scientists question is very

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closely about the absence of our seeing or noticing hands so the announcer put a paper over my

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hand and asked the scientist what about my hands had he noticed anything was I wearing a ring or not

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and he had to admit he hadn't noticed them this would have been a much more relaxed situation

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right well but the point is that you did notice some details and I was interested in

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whether you had noticed some other details yes no I had not how about here ready no I didn't

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yes I think I think the thing that does strikes me most is the fact that not only did these

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creatures breathe the earth's atmosphere with no difficulty but you were able to breathe the

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spacecraft's atmosphere with no difficulty is that a question no it's our comment well that's all I

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can say is that you notice any respirators or anything about not my position no Leon Jadav of

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science editor of Time magazine I think has a question or comment yes as I understand it

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the only tangible evidence of the visit of this ship and their experience with it

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is the appearance of the bright shiny spots on the trunk of your car is that correct that would

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have been one of the tangible evidence one that I hadn't found to be important is that when I arrived

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in Poetsmouth that morning my shoes were badly scuffed and this well it's my opinion a rather

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my word there's no proof to it the reason I asked I am aware of the scuff marks on your shoes but

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that should have happened in any earthly experience this is correct the point that I wonder about

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is the failure either of of mrs hill to call the attention of these spots to mr webb of the

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Hayden planetarium who was there a couple of years later or perhaps you had mentioned them but

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then mr webb neglected to look at them and since this is the only tangible evidence we wonder why

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someone didn't think of this we discussed the spots with Walter webb and with mr Holman and mr

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Jackson but we had spent hours discussing this and then it was just an oversight on their part and

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leaving when they left us we just forgot to show them to know if I ever did no one put that question

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to mr webb maybe john who was talking yes I did and uh wolder webb simply throws up his hand and

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discussed it his own failure as an investigator I am convinced in my own mind that nothing was hidden

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there was simply a very serious oversight and he agrees that it was ed eddleton of world journal

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tribune although spots still there and if not were what happened to them the spots gradually

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wore away over the winter months and we don't have the time to have professor mcdonald of

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university of arizona while we're on the spots there there is a point that uh probably ought to be

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made and then a question that ought to be asked the reason you originally uh uh got the compass out

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to look at those was that someone had suggested that this would be a means of testing for radiation

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I I it's not clear to me how that would ever have detected the irradiation of the car I think that

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is just an alteration that should be made are you saying that if it were irradiated that the

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compass would not in any case behave this way yeah in the first instance I'm saying that irradiation

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could not be detected with a mad compass but so that's just a side comment but you did the experiment

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nevertheless and so we have the results of the experiment and it's quite disconcerting because

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with anything other than a or a current rapidly changing dipole moment of some mysterious kind

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in the trunk of the car there is no easy way to understand the mechanism to cause the compass

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needle to spin well those beeping sounds the only noise you heard is this apparently huge aircraft

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approached yes these were the this was the only sound we heard and by the end you didn't hear any sound

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when you were all in the vehicle sound but it wasn't as the aircraft approached it was after I had

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dashed back to the car and screamed to Betty Betty that something was going to capture us

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then there was a series of beeps now I do recall touching the steering column because it was a very

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subtle vibration and the last I remembered is Betty was feeling around on the panel of the car the

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dashboard itself and then later there was another series of beeps and the game remark what's that

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and Betty then asked if I believed in flying saucers and I said no I'm certainly not a psychologist but

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some aspects of the story that mrs hill told particularly the the needle incident seemed to me

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recognizable from having read Freud and I wonder mr shunbrun that by any chance had been talked over

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between you and dr simon yes I would rather not put that into context but it has been however I

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think that mr fuller had discussed that with dr simon I discussed it with Betty herself too and

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Betty is a qualified state social worker is aware of the dream symbolism and that sort of thing

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and it is something that she cannot explain one way or the other I don't think that it should be

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discussed publicly I do say that that facet of it has been completely and thoroughly explored

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and Betty is fully aware of it as anybody else and may I add something that's something that I've

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discovered since the hypnosis and I don't know if this would apply to adults but in hospitals when

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it's necessary to obtain a blood sample from a small infant it is done through the navel I think

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that you might correct me if this is wrong at least point out to one fact that you said it was a very

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large needle larger than anything that you ever seen from along that had been plunged into your

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navel I can't say it was plunged in but it was they started to insert it and I had pain and I was

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under the impression they stopped but there was no blood or physical evidence of puncture I wasn't

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aware of this until 1964 well whenever it happened if it did happen you didn't detect any wound on

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your body no any other questions about this well I think that I'd like to be very careful about this

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and I've taken very careful notes in my discussion with dr simon and I'd like to read these notes to

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you I want to take just a second to go over them myself and we will be back with dr simon's testimony

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given to us right after this message I recently had the opportunity of talking to dr ben simon the

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psychiatrist who's treated bitty and Barney hill and asked him whether he could summarize for me his

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findings he made it very clear that we must avoid such words as belief for other unscientific words

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and that the treatment has not been completely concluded and so this is a summary of the doctor's

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thoughts on the case of Barney and Betty hill he said that from the very start he envisaged of four

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possibilities one is that it might be a rare psychological phenomenon known as fully adieu

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that means both people going crazy at the same time with the same illusion and he excluded that

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immediately he said these were to him very very sane and reasonable and and honest people and

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not suffering from this quite rare psychological phenomenon of fully adieu the second possibility

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is that this was simply a fraud and he said of course he had to go into that and he went into

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it very thoroughly and he's convinced that the way their stories came out in hypnosis as well as

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the waking period analysis convinces him that there is no case for fraud here at all then there was

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the third possibility that the story was fundamentally true as related that in fact they not only cited

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a flying object but that they were aboard a flying object a flying saucer and met humanoid creatures

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and he said that after examination he came to the conclusion that this was a very remote possibility

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and he said there were any number of evidences that that pointed in another direction which leads to

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the fourth possibility in his various hypotheses which he calls the dream hypothesis and that is

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that Betty after the experience had certain dreams and that after a period of time the dreams became

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reality and the doctor pointed out that although hypnosis under hypnosis the patient always tells

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the truth it is the truth as the patient sees and knows the truth himself but it is not necessarily

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the ultimate non-personal truth and the doctor said he found many evidences that there was a

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strong stimulus from the very first experience that you had in citing this object a very strong

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stimulus towards believing the existence of the flying saucer and the doctor said to me i do believe

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that they saw an unidentified flying object and his final word on the subject that there is very

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strong evidence of dream content and that of all of the hypotheses that he examined the dream hypothesis

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is the most likely one and that is the burden of his present summary before we go on to discuss the

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very much broader subject in which of course i think we're all interested about the existence of

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intelligence creatures outside of earth who have in fact an advanced technology and have been visiting

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earth before we go into that i think in all fairness i must allow john fuller of the hills to make

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some comment on the summary of what dr benzheim told me the only comment i can make is this that

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i spent weeks with dr simon going over the tapes listening stopping going all that sort of thing

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naturally it's a long hard pull in this kind of situation and there are many vacillations and many

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hesitations and many different points of discussion that come up one problem one of the main reasons

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why dr simon had moved away from the fact of the actuality of this is because of the fact that

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he of course was not interested in the ufo story and as a scientist and i don't blame him he would

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be inclined because it is not documented anywhere in scientific history and this is the main reason

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why i think it is most important that the scientific fraternity turn toward the masses of the other

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cases which are appearing right now so that if a case like this comes up there is at least some

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some background and some foundation some substance to make a judgment one way or the other on this

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there's no doubt that there are a fair small fact of these sightings which remain unknown that

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is very different from saying that the only possible explanation of these unknowns is that

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there's space vehicles from another planet and if you look at the number of relatively obscure

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natural phenomena which have been identified misapprehended as fine saucers you see that nature

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is very complicated and i wonder if i heard well be that there are actually things in the

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atmosphere of the earth things of a biological nature things in particular involving atmospheric

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refraction which can explain the category of unknowns the mere fact that we don't know it

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means just that it doesn't mean the extraterrestrial visitation is the only possible explanation

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i just like to point out that if these are visitors from another planet they're going about this

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in a very illogical let's say unerrathly way well that's not what i was about to say and

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just pointed out that the unidentified cover are coming in various different shapes so apparently

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they've sent a whole fleet of these things here they have gone to very great expense to come

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long distances and yet somehow they don't want to open contact with us they seem to delight in

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deserted places and in hard maneuvers and i think one point dr sagan mentioned in his book is that

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astronomers have been pointing telescopes toward the sky and taking pictures many pictures of the

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night sky and there has been a singular lack of provable UFOs on those pictures even when i might

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add these sky surveys have been designed to look for rapidly moving objects namely a study of mirrors

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and i think this tends to explain the general skepticism of the astronomical community towards

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the flying saucer reports in general that doesn't mean that there aren't things up there that are

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unidentified let me reiterate again that unidentified doesn't mean extraterrestrial it means we

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don't understand it and i quite agree that uh that that there is something there to be found out

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i think there's probably things meteorological things geophysical and almost certainly things

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psychological well let me point out something there and to go back both to the to the hell's

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case and to your remarks dr sagan uh you suggest that a very small fraction of all the official

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official cases project blue book of the air force are unidentified i spent almost all of the summer

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a good bit of the spring about the last six months in nearly full time study of this uh this whole

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and then as part of that uh been up to right patterns and can't agree with either your remarks

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or the air force remarks project blue book figures when i went over case after case and i dare say

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i've looked into about 150 200 cases at right patterns and alone the discrepancies between the

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official categorizations balloons aircraft berg and so on astronomical meteorological the discrepancies

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between the official categorizations and the content of the reports was to me and no other word

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could describe this astounding document uh despite these discrepancies that you found in reports have

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you or has anyone else who has investigated this phenomenon um seriously ever found a single piece

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of evidence hardware hardware uh anything other than pictures or settings and not hardware uh

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certainly there have been many cases i could probably sit here and think of a couple of dozen

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of the instances where the credible observers describe such artifacts if you will as indentations

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in the ground where a craft settled a scorched vegetation near which uh is it true but then

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who are not but then because they're been a scientific inquiry yes there's been one case

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in which some people have read the findings and some people have uh i've been skeptical and this

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is reported in the book by corral lorenza and chainer husband lj lorenza are head of the aerial

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phenomena research organization and they received a report from dr fontes who is a physician um

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in in brazil and the report describes a fragment which supposedly came from a flying saucer which

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burst and then were analyzed i don't i can't comment on the report how well it was done but

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according to the conclusion this would suggest it was a high quality aluminum

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or magnesium pardon me uh higher quality than supposedly is possible in earth laboratory but

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there are other people gentlemen please forgive me forgive me for interrupting this very exciting

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discussion at this moment we'll come back to it right after this message we're back again with

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professor mcdonald a professor of atmospheric physics the university of arizona sir you said a

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moment ago that the subject requires considerable examination rectification would you begin by

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telling us of how you first got interested and came to this opinion well i've uh had a uh

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a mild interest in this problem for perhaps a decade my field is atmospheric physics and a lot of the

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official explanations have centered around atmospheric physical phenomena optical effects and so on

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and this led me all at 1954 so to begin checking cases in the southern arizona

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area where i live and work let me take one case this is now almost 10 years ago the rather important

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case probably many listeners will remember when it was headline news it occurred in levelland texas

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the night of november second and the morning of the third 1957 it involved some very interesting

359
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phenomena uh i've interviewed some of the people who were involved in it i have a map here uh that

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will give us a little bit of a notion of the uh of the general geography here is levelland texas a

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small town about 30 000 the lines are highways running in and out of level and uh for about 11 o'clock

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at night on the second till around one in the morning on the third a series of about 10 independent

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sightings by uh 10 persons a couple of them were law enforcement officers others were just drivers

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over here there were uh there was a two grain combines involved in every one of these instances

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the interesting thing that happened was that the driver of the vehicle suddenly came upon a very

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large and when i say large uh the reported sizes were the order of 100 to 200 feet diameter glowing

367
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sometimes reddish sometimes bluish objects hovering over fields or roads the first effect on the

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vehicle was a interference with the lights and then the ignition system failed excuse me doctor i

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noticed that you have a lot of numbers on the map if you could point them out these places where

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the sightings were there yes they are 10 numbers on here i won't bother the names and individuals

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but this 10 miles is about the size of this pencil just to give you some scale and these are spread

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over a two hour period and each one of these numbers here's one seven they correspond to

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the names of the people were instances in which cars were stopped and the lights went out as soon

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as the object took off which was the characteristic pattern so the some of the cars were stopped for

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two two or three minutes but then the objects rose from the ground sometimes with enormous

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accelerations then the lights came back on without any manipulation of the ignition key and the driver

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found he could immediately start his car this was common to all of these cases now the official

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explanation of this level in texas case based on the air force handling of the project blue book

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investigation was that this was ball lightning uh that that's what accounted supposedly for these

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200 foot diameter objects plus wet ignitions and that was the official explanation of why the cars

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stopped now we all know about the fact that cars when they do get wet don't usually start immediately

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there's a bit of a problem there but this is uh this is uh only secondary compared to what one

383
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finds when he looks as i have at the actual weather data for the case in question excuse me sir

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before we get there if it were ball lightning is it normal to have ball lightning of that size and

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would that ball lightning have the electromagnetic quality of stopping these engines well there are

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there are first of all the typical size of ball lightning ball lightning is a fairly rare phenomenon

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most of us have never seen it i have never seen it though that's very much in my field

388
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the uh of flipton diameter is a typical phenomenon but the the cases of ball lightning uh that are

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on record are uh strictly limited to extreme thunderstorm conditions where you have an energy

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source a high potential high gradient and the uh there is no i am not aware of any case where a

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vehicle was stopped by ball lightning it i could not assert that it could not occur well uh then

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this was the question i asked i discussed this problem with a colleague at westinghouse who's

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expert in these problems he said well maybe in the event of a really severe thunderstorm you could

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scale up ball lightning to tens of feet and maybe they made an error of estimate size so i looked at

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the map and i was quite startled uh as a person with meteorological training here's the map for

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the very time this is 12 o'clock midnight right in the middle of the level in texas that's a weather

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map this is a weather map these are the isobars i think perhaps many persons looking on will

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be familiar with us from weather sessions here's the gulf coast uh in the state of texas in is in

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here now i'll point with my pencil to level and texas which is in the panhandle and any of you

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who are familiar with meteorology will immediately be bothered by the fact that uh level and was

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being invaded by a large high pressure area pushing down over the great plains the nearest front was

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down near san angelo hundreds of miles away the nearest rain was about a hundred miles away

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the weather report for the nearest stations involved only scattered clouds and in level and

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area there were no stations at the time of the observation that even had any rain two hours

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later the one station that had less than one hundredth of an inch and here is the official

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explanation charging severe thunderstorms and wet ignitions utterly senseless and when i asked the

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people at right paterson they really had no very good answer and all i can say is that in cases of

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this sort uh an ad hoc explanation is almost full out of the blue i have just seen it in too many

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instances to be happy with us uh there there are many very definite things that could be done

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in a scientific context to pursue this problem and it badly needs that kind of attention in my opinion

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thank you very much uh professor mcdonald we'll be back again in just a moment we have heard the

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extraordinary personal story of barney and betty hill and a much broader discussion of the phenomenon

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of ufo's by a panel of authorities some of whom insist there are no visitors from outer space

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some of whom are skeptical and some of whom believe that the only explanation to fit the facts

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is that there are extra terrestrial visitors well what are we to believe when the experts disagree

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speaking both for myself and for the editors of this program we would say this

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unidentified flying objects demand serious and immediate scientific attention we would recommend

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one an immediate study in depth by university teams two a pattern analysis by computer of

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existing data and three the establishment of a ufo research center staffed by competent scientists

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for ridicule is no longer appropriate we did not write the words that i have just spoken

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they had taken from a speech made in june of this year by dr j alan heinic chairman of the

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astronomy department of northwestern university and for the past 18 years science advisor to the

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air force study of ufo's we subscribe to his recommendations but we would make one important

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addition that the ufo research center the totally independent of government but that

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would have the authority to examine air force data this is david shonbrunn good night